Adam Avramescu 00:08
Welcome to CELab. I’m AA lab and this is DD lab. We are here today to cover the TSIA State of Education Services report. Isn’t that right? DD?
Dave Derington 01:23
We’re not even going to do the International Day of we’re just gonna jump in that fast we got to do oh no, let’s
Adam Avramescu 01:27
do it. Let’s do it. What is it?
Dave Derington 01:29
Well, darn it, it is national Thrift Store Day.
Adam Avramescu 01:34
Oh my gosh, well, I’m gonna pop some tags.
Dave Derington 01:37
Get a Macklemore this up. Hey, will
Adam Avramescu 01:39
you be the Ryan Lewis to my Macklemore? In data? Well, let’s do this. Alright, is that who we would be in this? I don’t know, man. We’re just which one of us is which one of us is the Macklemore. And which one of us is the Ryan Lewis? Audience? Which one of us is the Steph Curry and which one are the warriors?
Dave Derington 01:57
Hey, that’s mean, three shots. Okay, let’s do it. Let’s talk. But that’s a great segue into this episode. Because what we’re wanting to do is we’re, we’re following on on the state of reports that we do every year. Now there’s this is three of four that have come out so far in 2022.
Adam Avramescu 02:14
Yeah, in fact, when we started recording this mini series three came out, there’s actually a fourth one. So we’ll we’ll cover it soon. But yes, now now we’re talking about number three, which is the Tsia. To the technology and services industry association. Every year they publish this state of education services report,
Dave Derington 02:32
we have to say they’re really consistent about this, I have in my folder in my archives, the last five or six of them running. So let’s break into this this this is designed to be a mini, what we want to do is pick up some of the key themes and talking points out of that, and again, invite you to talk about it with us online, or forums or what have you. So Adam, where shall we start today? What’s the first takeaway that you had? Or shall we frame it up? And what the spirit of this year’s report is all
Adam Avramescu 03:00
about? Yeah, so in each of the episodes, so far, we’ve been talking a little bit about the methodologies and the sample basis that these reports use to form their findings. And so I think it’s important for us when we think about Tsia, to think about who are the members of Tsia. By and large, this is a different representative sampling, then we saw in some of the other reports that we’ve covered, like skill jar or thought industries, because here in Tsia, you’re actually going to see a much larger member base of companies who offer true Technology Services. And thus, within education, true education services running as a p&l, they’re generating profit in a lot of cases. And in many cases, they’re doing this for these on prem software companies. Can we talk about on prem versus SAS for a moment? Because I think those are really around for this. This is probably super
Dave Derington 03:54
important. I know, well, I was around for it. I’m gonna take it back. Let’s go in the Wayback Machine. Let’s 20 years ago, one of the things that that has led me into this field, Adam, is that I realized that I was doing training and education back that early on in my career. I mean, we all kind of get drawn to our calling, and this is this was mine. I was in a laboratory. I was helping integrate a lot of systems. But all of those systems were on prem meaning, okay, you get a million dollar contract. You go and install software on servers, or
Adam Avramescu 04:27
desktops literally on premise, like in someone’s servers on the premises. Right. You’re literally
Dave Derington 04:33
this was it was fun, bizarre crazy. Back in the day, you know, I’m talking about late 90s, where I was working in,
Adam Avramescu 04:39
like how labs how many floppy disks?
Dave Derington 04:43
Yeah, that’s actually true. Because it’s a lot of times you get this big collection of CDs or desks or whatever, and you’d have to go into the server room, and you have to put them on the server and install this stuff. I mean, it was an ordeal software is so fundamentally different today that if you’re Just if you’re more new to it, and you haven’t been in that environment where you know how you can even download some things, in some cases, you had to go to a special server room that was secured, and there was all these rules. So the difference is you have in your company on your property, all of the software that’s running locally, you can’t get to it from it, you couldn’t work remote, it was impossible. And now the tables of churn. And I think that starts us off on this journey for today, where you go, Okay, again, Software is eating the world. It’s all in the cloud. And it’s disruptive, anything really validates that that reality is sunk in.
Adam Avramescu 05:37
Absolutely. And so it’s, it’s worth taking a moment just even process that right? Because if you’re running education services at a company delivering on prem software, then you’re probably just rolling your eyes at everything you just said, because you’re like, of course, yes, is what’s happening. And of course, now all the new companies that are born in the cloud, and our Sass companies are working under a fundamentally different model and have different constraints and different limitations. But for those of us who have been primarily working at SAS companies, and especially for those who are listening, who never worked at a company with an on prem offering, like this is actually what SAS is in response to, this is why it is software as a service. Yeah, because you no longer own the physical software, you are essentially renting it from a company. And so the report really goes hard on this idea that with SAS, because you’re essentially renting the software from the company. And then as the software provider, you’re essentially getting the customer continually renew the rental of that software, then you’re operating in this, like high growth but lower profit environment, right? Because you just have to keep selling and keep renewing your customers in a way where you wouldn’t when you’ve got that like million dollar installation. And then hopefully what like five years later, you go out for some more rounds of golf and drinks and then like buy another million dollars in software, right?
Dave Derington 06:58
I miss those days. In some ways, I really do because it was fun. But
Adam Avramescu 07:03
it puts more onus on the buyer of the software, right? Like, if they don’t get value from the software, and they don’t get ROI. Well, yeah, that’s kind of their fault at the end of the day, but they can’t cancel the service. So like you can’t those of us who are in SAS are working much harder to earn every renewal than it used to be. Yeah, but we’re working
Dave Derington 07:20
much harder to do anything we were you have this concept of like ever boarding or you know, continuous, your renewing airport. Is that like waterboarding? Yeah, kind of like that. I heard that. Who do you get that from? I’m sorry, I’m losing my attribution the moment because this is like, just fluid off the cuff. But let’s think about that. Old school, you paid a lot of money, you do training one time, maybe people get it. That’s how I got into this field, Adam was because that didn’t work for us even then. And nobody knew how to use the product. So you had to designate some people to be subject matter experts and teach them, you had new people coming in to learn it. And it was way harder on the company. Now, we’ve shifted all that outside. So you can’t sometimes keep up like we know this. Really, personally, the stealing of, I can’t keep up with the changes that are happening. It’s a good thing. Because what our dream was back in the day is like have a bug, oh, shoot, I can’t do anything. I’ve got a bug now. And I have to remember this work, right, we have to have a patch, and it’s going to take weeks, and that was a software wasn’t working, then it couldn’t use it correctly was a big problem. Now we can deploy a patch in seconds. So that feeling of that immediacy of change has led us to a fundamental crisis in education, where before it could be you had to have education, Adam, and we had to pay a lot of money for it. And then we go away. Now we’re constantly educated.
Adam Avramescu 08:45
Yeah, this is really the premise of the TSA report. And what the report doesn’t talk about, I think, because it was written too early for this is that we’re also now in a situation where the financial outlook for a lot of companies has become a lot more tenuous, and companies are asking to cut costs. We’ve recently seen waves of layoffs happening across tech companies. And so everyone is now in the position of needing to do more with less, but at the VC level. And when you think about what sort of advice people are giving companies or even like in the public markets, you’re seeing companies move away from this idea of growth as the primary motivator towards more sustainability towards better margin towards better profitability. So in a way, actually, you’re seeing SAS companies that are used to hypergrowth infinite growth, being asked to act a little bit more like on prem companies used to be or in many cases still are, right? Because because the model is different. So like, this is kind of that I think that was the frame up, right? We’re seeing a report that is running, it’s kind of poking some holes in the conventional wisdom about SAS businesses, having higher multiples and being more efficient and more profitable and all of this this this report is saying, hey, you know But let’s actually take a look at our member base, let’s actually say maybe some of these, these facts aren’t true. And in fact, what we’ve got is more of a challenge for education services teams to be able to deliver value for their customers. And yeah, deliver deliver value. Exactly. And they point to two different areas where we’re really being asked to increase the quality of our delivery. One is the customer experience. And that kind of breaks down into the learning experience, and the overall digital experience that we’re offering our customers including service, right, and because within customer experience, we’re supporting products that are always on. And because we’re ever boarding customers, that means that we have to continue delivering a seamless experience for our customers. And we have to be measuring metrics, that was a little redundant, you have to be measuring, measuring, measuring metrics, yeah, we’re using his KPIs, the signals that your your customers are continuing to get value from your product over time with as little friction as possible. So you want to talk about that a little bit like some of your takeaways, right, I want to pull out one bit of data that actually, I think it’s really important to say from this this report, let’s go to Kirkpatrick literally 96% of respondents to the survey that powered this report said they’re in reactive mode, meaning they’re not really capturing the data and the information to show how we’re moving the needle, how education is moving the needle. So you’ve got, okay, like we’re used education before was easy. When we had had people in a seat in a room, taking a test, you’d see that we could do all this stuff. It’s natural. Now we’re kind of lamenting the fact that we’re putting a lot of content out. And that helps. But those that are making that content aren’t measuring the uptake. what did this do? That’s one of the things that I thought was, was really, there was another standard here that only about 11% of the company is focused on behavioral change Yeah, so like, let’s let’s tie this together for a moment, right? Because this is this is measuring down the Kirkpatrick levels. And for those of you who didn’t listen to our Kirkpatrick episode, or a model shame that you can use to measure the results of your training offerings. Level one is the reaction to the training. And level two says, okay, so what if they liked it? Did they learn anything? Level three says so what if they learned anything? Did they change their behavior and level horses? So what if they change their behavior to changing the behavior actually happy results. So again, you see this breakdown where the majority of people are measuring reaction, but they’re kind of stopping there, you’ve got only about half who are doing some sort of assessment of whether the customer learned anything. And then like you said, 11%, are actually measuring any sort of behavior change. And level four results is even lower than that. So that’s actually, we see this distribution fairly often, although I think it’s starting to change, especially the more that companies and learning programs have the ability to measure the downstream effects of their learning. And part of how they do that is through better integrations. Because if you can see, for instance, for your trained versus untrained customers, whether they actually got to first value quicker, or whether they were more likely to renew or expand or upsell, you can actually then see correlation, not causation. But you can see whether training was correlated with those downstream effects. And it seems like a lot of people just aren’t aren’t measuring that still.
Dave Derington 14:05
Yeah. And I find that really surprising. I can take a moment right here to actually use this as an opportunity to connect to John Lay’s talents and learnings report that just came out recently, where one of the things that he had said in that very boldly was at integrations are one of the main trends like the number of integrations that a platform can do successfully, to get us to those learning outcomes to get us to be able to be able to tie data points to trends and see what people are doing. And if it’s moving the needle, that’s one of the big drivers right now in the market. That is turning people from learning platform to another. They’re thinking about this stuff. They want to solve these problems
Adam Avramescu 14:45
in a big way. Yeah, this report comments on that too, right? Because they actually asked their member base here, whether they were integrating with other systems or not. And what you can see is again, actually, like fairly low integrations overall for a lot of these programs, you’re, you’re not necessarily integrating your LMS. With other systems of records you had. The most common one was their CRM, the customer relationship management system, that’s going to be something like HubSpot or Salesforce. And that was what most of the respondents were integrating with if they were integrating with anything, but that was only 43%. And then that got lower with the financial system, presumably, because you’re, you’re tracking revenue from your training program, or with the support system, presumably, because you’re tracking the effect of training on support tickets and support cases. And again, knowing that this is a TSI EIA report. And we’re focusing a lot on education services, businesses who are generating revenue, and who are also interacting as part of a broader spectrum of professional services and support organizations. Like, I think there’s good reason that they’re looking for these types of integrations. But overall, I think the thing that was really eye opening for me in this report was seeing that the overall uptake of any sort of integration between the LMS and anything else was low 18%, were integrated with any other systems. And so then when you’re going and looking at, you know, how few people are measuring the effect on behavior results? Well, there’s a pretty strong tie to the fact that people aren’t integrating their systems to be able to measure the results of their learning, therefore, they aren’t measuring the results of their learning beyond the surveys or maybe like an assessment. Yeah, yeah. And it’s a thread that’s been pulling through from previous reports that TSI has said as well, you know, that this, this capability from data is a capability continues to lag for most training works. Yeah, I agree. So what else we want to pull out of this report? Dave, one of the things
Dave Derington 16:35
that I thought was really cool that I pulled out was this statement of meeting customers where they are really like that there was a part in in this about communications, and the statement made was about how there needs to be more Multi Channel Communications, not just a reliance on traditional email, for example, because I’ll tell you the story about that when I was at Outreach, everybody was Ultra anxious about email, to the point where I asked a question one day, May I do the survey to our customer base? In asking that question, the sensitivity was, oh, my gosh, we don’t want to spam or saturate our market with tons and tons of emails all the time. We can’t keep doing that. So what came out of that is, how else can we approach them? LinkedIn, social media, all these different channels that traditionally we didn’t have 1020 years ago, right. And that on prem world wasn’t used to working with now the market has shifted. So that’s something that I pulled out that I thought was how we’re getting out into new methodologies, new omni channel approaches that can reach our markets.
Adam Avramescu 17:43
Yeah. And they’re talking about it in a really interesting context as well, because this is sort of a response, I think, to what they’re saying about companies starting to invest more in their customer experience, but more specifically, their digital experience. And so to create an effective digital experience, one of the core recommendations that they make is improving find ability of content. So when you type in a search term that’s like, how do I do this? How do I do that, you should be able to find as much relevant content as quickly as possible. So they’re breaking down, in fact, whether you find a course, a module, a task, a combination of all of those things, and that’s what they’re talking about in terms of meeting customers where they are, is really making self service more seamless, so that you don’t necessarily need to pick up the phone or write an email, you can actually do more through web self service. And so you see, actually, if you look at the results, and again, we’re not going to spoil the entire report here, but we’ll suggest that web self service is picking up steam, and people are starting to make more investments in their abilities for customers to contact them. In fact, I’ll tell you a quick anecdote from personeel. Right now, Persona CEO has been going through several, what we call Customer Journey circles. And so we have our customer journey mapped into several key motions and phases that are essentially clustered by where the customer is in their journey. So if, for example, you might have an adoption cluster, you might have a service cluster. And in the service cluster, we’re really looking at what are all the experiences related to when a customer is trying to get some sort of service? And how can we make it easier and more effective for them to get that service, especially if it’s self service, when they want to have it? And then if self service isn’t going to do the trick, how do we make it easier for them to then get a personalized response from another human, we’re trying to optimize the customer journey and meet them where they are. So that’s actually why we’ve been working on several initiatives over the past few months to actually make self service dramatically easier. And in fact, to work on this exact thing about find ability, because we have a ton of resources, but we need to centralize our customers ability to find them. We need to give them the right cues to be able to find it when they’re looking for it, whether it’s in our on site search, whether it’s typing it into Google, et cetera, et cetera, whether it’s finding it directly in the product, that’s another big one. So this report is also pointing Two more companies starting to make investments like this, in their digital experience and the way that they’re, they’re measuring it or should be measuring it, I think is, was the customer actually able to do what they intended to do. So they’re calling that success? Was it easy to do what they were trying to do. So that’s effort. And you usually measure the customer effort score, if you read the effortless experience, it’s really good book and emotion to the customer come away feeling good. So this is a way to keep a pulse on whether you’re offering a strong digital experience or not by measuring success, effort and emotion. So I really liked that recommendation.
Dave Derington 20:36
That’s wonderful. Something else I had noted in my notes was going back to content now, like, as you’re talking, I was thinking about optive verse, the things that you had done there. And we talked about in the show before where you’re mapping out, you know, what’s the find stability index? Is it Yes, is that I find it, you can look at other content that we have about that. And I liked one other statement in here, and I thought I’d bring it out is, don’t get caught in the trap of believing that if you just provide digital content, your job is done to be resonant with what you were just talking about. I think this brings it back, this digital experience is really important that you’re not just going Booyah, here’s a bunch of stuff I’ve spotted out. And here’s just good luck, that if you
Adam Avramescu 21:19
created the world’s most well designed educational program rooted in evidence based learning principles, and therefore it is perfect, and I don’t know why not a single customer has found it. And I will not be taking any further questions.
Dave Derington 21:34
Yep, that’s a fair attitude to take. Because it’s easy to get into that way, we kind
Adam Avramescu 21:38
of get into it, right? Like we get into this trap, where we think about our content first. And we get really precious about our architecture, but we don’t think about distribution, and we don’t think about find ability. So this report is definitely underlining the importance of fine diversity, it also gets into some interesting territory, which, honestly, I don’t know how to feel about LSPs learning experience platforms, and the ability for customers to truly personalize their own experience, and curate their own content and submit user generated content. Yes, it’s an interesting world where, you know, we’re seeing strong LSP adoption among internal learning programs. But I don’t know that I’m truly seeing that take hold in customer education programs. And what I think the TSA report is getting at is the more personalized the learning experience feels to the learner, the more likely they’re going to be to engage with it, and then you’ll have uptake on your learning. But I’m not quite sure if LSPs are the solution to this. And this is maybe a preview of another report that we’re going to look at when we talk about the idea of kind of like bottoms up content curation and personalization.
Dave Derington 22:44
I was thinking about our manifesto. And when I talked
Adam Avramescu 22:48
about personalization, a manifesto
Dave Derington 22:52
in a good way, a good manifesto, don’t FBI don’t give me any trouble. You got enough problems. Number five, number six, I think what underlies for me personalization, you could talk about all this other stuff and get an LSP that helps you to like, how do I deliver this crafted? Okay, forget all that. It really comes down to two things. I, Dave Derington. Once an experience that I actually want to look at, it’s a good video. It’s funny, maybe it weren’t short. It’s concise, it gets to the point. It’s not like 15 minutes of Hey, everybody, I’m Dave Derington. And I’m gonna talk to you but I don’t need all that crap, I need you to get to the point. And I want it to be something that I would look at and actually watch not a boring click click slideshow. Second is you’ve provided me content in the moment that I need it and I found it. So if you could think about going back to the comments you made about making this really well archetype protected plan, and you’ve done all those things you don’t know why people are finding it was probably because you didn’t think about the other side of that, which is personalization, to me, means less about making this craft that branches infinitely. Let’s go to video game design, and video game design. We know the fallacy of that combinatorial explosion, you cannot do it in an open sandbox world is freaking impossible. Sometimes you have to bring people back to the path. But it’s not. But people are going to find the things they need. And they’re going to work on those. So if you clear the clutter, and you really focus on great content, structured in by like, what is it? What’s the job I have to be doing? What’s the outcome I need to get? Those are the things that I need. And I need less. Oh, Adam, I want you to go through this three hour window one that’s going to actually get you to that point.
Adam Avramescu 24:34
Yeah. So that is a really, I think smart way to start with the idea of curation and content relevance, and the record kind of comes to this as well. So when they’re talking about how to drive more value, and specifically we’re talking here about common adoption metrics, like time to first value because I believe if I’m remembering this correctly, Oh, yeah. And last year’s report, there was a really long like don’t remember if it was an aside, or if it was actually just the the theme. The thesis of the report was that all of these programs, were saying that adoption was the most important thing that their businesses are asking them to measure. And then none of them knew how to actually measure their impact on adoption. So there was this huge disconnect that the report was flagging. And again, I don’t remember if it was last year’s report, or if it was a previous years, you know, who even knows what time is. But here, they’re actually providing some interesting recommendations, which I quite like about how education services can start to tie themselves more to value and specifically to customer adoption. And so one of the things that they are talking about is the idea of partnering with your professional services team to customize the learning and make it more relevant to both the configuration of the software that the customer is actually using, like with all the integration setup, and things like that. So for example, like my team at Slack, we are an education services team. And when we deliver custom training to enterprise clients, we actually spent a lot of time focusing on how their environments are actually going to be set up. What boughten apps are they actually going to be using? How could we provide them some contextual training not just on what slack is, but on how Slack is going to be used for them. So this is one of the recommendations that the TSA report is making is work hand in hand with your professional services organization, so that the education represents the actual configuration of the product, but they’re also saying, make sure that the education reflects the actual job to be done, of the audience’s who are going to be receiving the training, and then you’re going to have a higher impact on adoption. So I thought that was a really nice deployment. Yeah, they’re talking about like, like, having use cases by vertical and use cases by job to be done. So it’s not one size fits all. And I really liked those recommendations. They also talked about time, that was another good one. You remember the one about actually delivering the training close to when customers are actually going to be using it not like six months in advance
Dave Derington 26:55
in the immediate response when you read that as well, da, but yeah, but people don’t anyway, right. But yeah, we do it because it’s a balk, but
Adam Avramescu 27:04
we train them, why aren’t they using the product? Well, we
Dave Derington 27:06
did training, well, that was six months ago. And remember the forgetting curve, nobody knows anything anymore. They forgot all that because they didn’t use it nail on logged in, they haven’t done anything they have onboarding is really super important to deliver. I guess one of the things that I’ve always been chasing Adam, is that, how do we automate that moment of delivery in time for everybody uniquely. And it’s something that outreach, I really love to so we actually crafted, we call the express on demand course, for administrators who are configuring like you were just talking about, and this was all on demand. And you could have somebody to help hold your hand through that if you had questions, and you had touch points. But we found that customers, once they saw that and had everything really listed out is in a, in a very good way, they didn’t need us anymore. And they were able to self implement, and it was all super cool. And the money and time we saved was observed.
Adam Avramescu 27:55
When and I think we’re gonna see more of this, especially for people with less complex implementations, we’ll start to see more self serve on demand implementations largely facilitated through technologies like digital adoption platforms, and the like, right, because the more we can actually make your onboarding steps contextual, and give you power over how to set things up at the account level. And then at the user level. Well, now we’re now we’re making things more relevant and timely for you as the end user. So I think we’ll continue to see a trend towards usage of not just of those platforms, but in general have more self serve implementation and onboarding processes.
Dave Derington 28:32
Yeah, absolutely. Love it. I mean, that’s the trend across the board is self service on demand. You see it everywhere, people migrating away from traditional training type stuff, because we simply, we’ve proven we can do it. Virtual. We’ve proven we don’t have to have people in a seat. We’ve saved so much money. COVID has helped a lot. But now we have the recession, looming pressures. It’s all pointing us the same way.
Adam Avramescu 28:56
Yeah, I agree. And so maybe just to wrap things up, at least on my end, Dave, I don’t know if you had other takeaways you wanted to highlight the only other one I wanted to highlight was I love how they gave a name to something that we always talk about. Oh, yeah, cuz you know how we, yeah, and this is sort of back on the forgetting curve point. We always talk about the fact that you write your like 101 course. And you stuffed all of the content and all features of the product in there. And then you’re like, oh, it’s time to write my advanced course. But I have no content to put in there. And also customers aren’t taking the full 101 course. What do I put the and scores? Well, once you put in the advanced courses, all the stuff you need to take out of your one on one course, because the one on one courses is overloaded. And Dave, do you remember what they call it in this report? I do not. What was it? They call it 10 pounds in a five pound bag. Oh, I
Dave Derington 30:15
remember that phrase, that was fun. 10 pounds, I gotta I gotta say it, you got 10 pounds and five pound bag?
Adam Avramescu 30:24
Yeah, 10 pounds in a five pound bag. Thank you. Thank you, Maria and TSIA. For that, that’s really, we’re definitely going to be using that in the future. So that’s at least the note that I want to end on the Dave, I don’t know, if you have any other takeaways from this report,
Dave Derington 30:37
we could go on forever. But I think we’ve hit the core of them, you know, the personalization, the digital experience, the driving value realization that I think the education services universe, in this, I’m going to turn it in a positive way. I think the education universe services universal is really starting, not just started, they have actually understood where customer education premises are coming from, that this is unavoidable that we’re going to have to make fundamental changes in how we do revenue, what our goals are, and how we deliver education. And it has to be at scale with growth minded because we’re not on prem anymore.
Adam Avramescu 31:16
It’s true. Well, and some people still are. But increasingly, those companies are making the switch as well. So if we accept this as the inevitable reality, whether it’s sooner or later than the more we know how to continue to be useful to our businesses and continue to facilitate revenue or margin, or hopefully both, then we’re going to still stay strategic and relevant to our businesses. So that just becomes more important in this new economic environment.
Dave Derington 31:45
You know what I would say, just in closing, one closing thought, I have seen the emergence of some more newer platforms in education platforms that actually are allowing you to sandbox in present on prem software, in a virtualized environment to train it. Yes, yes. They’re like virtual lab platforms. arrestee Labs is one vendor I’ve worked with recently. It does an exceptional job at this. There is. Gosh, I’m trying to remember the name of it. There’s another chair do this. Yeah, I think so. Global. But there’s yeah, there’s lots of these platforms that are saying, Okay, well, we can simulate on premise software with a virtualized application and allow you to learn about it. And that helps quite a lot.
Adam Avramescu 32:29
Yeah, absolutely. And use in strong, especially stru. Tech you to instruct us with an instructor the cue. Yep, yeah. And there with a whole suite of like virtual lab platforms or live labs, you’re able to deliver more of what you would have delivered in that lab environment, but do it at scale and online. So, Dave, if you want 10 pounds of customer education information in a five pound bag, what URL do you use for that bag? Well,
Dave Derington 33:00
I would go to customer dot education. You know what you love it, you bookmark it, get out there. And if you found value in our podcast, we have all kinds of stuff there. We have show notes, we have transcripts, and more to come. So share with others, your friends, your peers over beers, and help us find the others. We still use our Twitter’s I met Dave Derington. I’m out there on Instagram and stuff, too. Now, where are you at Adam?
Adam Avramescu 33:25
I’m on LinkedIn mostly these days. And we also have a C lab LinkedIn that you can subscribe to. We generally post updates and questions there. So that’s a fun one.
Dave Derington 33:34
That’s great. And thanks to Alan coda, hey, making great awesome Music transitions and more for us. You’re great. We know that many of you are also subscribed right now. But what we really want for all of you in the audience to do is get out there right now in your platform of choice. Give us a five star review on Apple podcasts, anywhere show us
Adam Avramescu 33:52
your pre Spotify has reviews now I think, and more. So please, please, please do it. And thank you for joining us. Go out and educate, experiment and find your people. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening.