Dave Derington: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, Dave here. This is the live episode from Skilljar connect, which was hosted virtually on October 1st and second 2020. We’d like to thank Skilljar for the invitation to this year. And we’ll have a recap episode from the 2020 season of wonderful customer education events, connect that you’ll want to make sure to make time for in 2021.
For those of you who are on this session and submitted a question, which wasn’t answered fear, not because we’ll have yet another male backup sewed in the very near future. Enjoy.
Alright, I’m going to kick this off. Welcome everybody to CELab. thanks Sarah. For the great introduction to us, you can shorten it. We’ll shorten this up a little bit. This is the customer education laboratory, where we explore how to build customer education programs, experiment with new approaches and exterminate them this and bad advice and stop growth dead in its tracks.
Adam, what are we going to hear today? What are we going to talk about today with these
Adam Avramescu: [00:00:59] questions? we want to thank everyone who has attended today and who has been posting questions in the Slack workspace. but we are so excited to bring you a live episode of CELab today on national homemade cookies day
Dave Derington: [00:01:15] cookies.
Is it too early for cookies?
Adam Avramescu: [00:01:18] it’s never too early for cookies. We’ve got some good homemade ones that maybe I’ll enjoy one after we’re done, but. Yeah. For those of you who don’t know us, we started co-hosting CELab in 2018 as a way to keep a pulse on the state of customer education. And as a way to help find the others in an industry that’s growing rapidly with new people, joining all the time, including maybe some of you.
Dave Derington: [00:01:40] Yeah, Adam, you and I have been on really parallel paths here. Haven’t we, we started out building and leading our respective teams at Gainsight and optimized late, and that’s how we met
Adam Avramescu: [00:01:49] that’s right. We were both building our programs and we were looking for more resources and peers in the industry, especially folks who are building customer education programs for SAS companies.
And other businesses where that tried and true practice, didn’t always fit the mold.
Dave Derington: [00:02:03] And as we’ve been recording this podcast, we’ve had really good fortune to make, to speak to many of you, customer education leaders, practitioners, executives, and festers. And we’ve been thinking a lot about what it really takes to be a modern customer education professional and what we value.
Adam Avramescu: [00:02:18] And that’s why we created a customer education manifesto. Six core principles that summarize what modern customer education, modern customer education professionals value.
Dave Derington: [00:02:28] And that my friends is intended to be our guiding light for new customer educators entering the field, and also to provide a signal to how customer education is changing from historical practices of what we formerly have been used to in education services.
Adam Avramescu: [00:02:43] as you can imagine, that leads to a lot of questions and that’s why we’re doing a mailbag episode today. We really want to use this as an opportunity to take questions submitted by Skilljar connect attendees. And we also encourage you to keep submitting questions in the lab questions, channel of the Skilljar connect workspace.
we might do a future mailbag episode cause we will not have time to answer all the ones that were submitted, but we love answering questions. and we also encourage you to visit our site@customer.education. That’s. HTTP https:// customer.education, to learn more about what’s in the manifesto and what these six principles actually are.
Just click the manifesto link at the top.
Dave Derington: [00:03:22] And if you agree with them, great, we’d love for you to sign this manifesto is poised place to do it on the site itself. We’ve got a form for just that.
Adam Avramescu: [00:03:31] Okay, Dave, let’s dive in. Let’s open the mail bag. So here’s the plan. We’ll answer as many questions as we can until we have just a couple of minutes left and then we’ll wrap up with some calls to action from the audience.
How does that sound?
Dave Derington: [00:03:43] That sounds great. And anything we can’t get to today, we don’t have time for, we may record for a future episode. I say the likelihood is pretty high for that. So make sure you subscribe to our podcast. It’s CELab, the customer education laboratories, wherever you listen to podcasts. So let’s go.
Adam Avramescu: [00:04:00] All right, opening up the mailbag. Our first question comes to us from Brandon, from JAMA, who also presented yesterday. Hi Brandon. So he writes, you talk a lot on that. See, live about starting out things you’ve learned in the past, et cetera. It’s great. Thank you. What advice do you have for those who that are working with one other employee manage a very small team on how to take the next step and grow their impact and have more employees and ultimately get their own customer education department.
Dave Derington: [00:04:27] Oh, my gosh. Hey Adam, I’ll lead. I think one of the very hardest things to do is to actually give yourself that space and take a step back, take a breath, right from the day to day and think strategically. but that’s only the first step. So what else do you think we can do Adam?
Adam Avramescu: [00:04:43] yeah, I think it’s true when you’re in a small team like that, and this is our bread and butter.
You and I have both done this. it’s really hard to take that step back to think strategically, but when you’re thinking strategically, like how do you do that? How do you carve out the time? I think one good way to do that. Is to look at your business as a whole start there before you start thinking about your education program specifically.
So when you think of the story of your business, the goals of your business, the KPIs they measure, the OKR is they set whatever your business calls it. What is it trying to accomplish? What are those main goals? Then you can start to think about how customer education could support those goals. So in a way, this is almost like Greenfield brainstorming.
if you think of those metrics, what could you be doing within customer education to really support those goals? Another way to think about it. So the metrics are one way, that’s the quantitative way. How about the qualitative way? When you tell the story of what your business does, when you think about the mission, when you think about how you describe it to friends, families, prospective customers, what is the single most important way the customer education could fit into that story?
Dave Derington: [00:05:43] And that’s a good point. you’re trying to figure out where we fit in, but then I’d say. Equally important is for you to focus and to execute. So I’m not going to a personal story here, but I’ll try to avoid it cause they’ll take time. But the tricky part is saying no, things are urgent.
Things are tempting. Things are distracting. I think what Adam, you had said at one point, when you were previous managers had a shiny things folder even to put that stuff in.
Adam Avramescu: [00:06:06] So yeah, whenever you have something tempting, seems like a good opportunity. Put it in the shiny things folder, unless it’s actually the main thing that you want to achieve.
Dave Derington: [00:06:14] You’ll get back to it. But a point I really want to make and I’ve done before, and it’s very hard is you need to level set with your leadership on this regularly. If something is important and it needs to bump what you’re working on. That’s okay. But really challenged folks because you don’t have a lot of time in our job is to get to scale.
Adam Avramescu: [00:06:34] Yeah. There’s a David Packard quote that says companies don’t die of starvation. They die of indigestion. So really the risk at a startup or a fast growing company. And if you’re a small education team, that might be the situation you’re in is just taking on too much or losing your focus. But I think when we think about telling that story about how, what you’re doing within customer education ties to the bigger objectives like this is where you’re really trying to grow your influence.
And I’m actually thinking to tie this back to Skilljar connect yesterday, MTS from guru talked about three levels of metrics, leading indicators, lagging indicators, and business outcomes. So all of those work together to tell the story starting from what activity you generate. So those leading indicators could be the enrollments in your courses, views, likes, whatever that is right there, the really immediate stuff.
that’s data that you probably have already, and you can start to report on with a little bit more storytelling. On the other hand, you actually have the business outcomes that you would like to tie to. If you’ve done the thinking we just talked about. what business outcomes your execs care most about or trying to achieve the key is now to start to tie those together in the middle to get those lagging indicators.
Dave Derington: [00:07:40] and to do that, how do we do it? We focus on a key metric that the business actually cares about, and we work to take that all the way through, pull it through all of your efforts and demonstrate to your leadership into the world. In fact, the impact. So don’t talk about what you’re working on.
Talk about how it moves the metric. Adam, you have a story from Optimizely on this don’t you.
Adam Avramescu: [00:08:02] Yeah. I’ll just use it as an example. and this is one that I think a lot of folks are in when they’re in smaller teams or fast growing startups, really one of the big business pain points is to try to figure out how to scale effectively.
And that often means trying to figure out support deflection because you’ve hired all these great people and they’re providing such world-class support to customers, but they’re spending a lot of time doing it. So the business problem there and the outcome they want to achieve is how do we continue to maintain a high level of customer service, and customer outcomes without.
Spending as much, to deliver that. So it Optimizely, we actually started focusing very aggressively on what can we do to drive support deflection. and you have to have some moment of quantitative, quantitative storytelling. That’s how I describe it. That allows you to grow. So for us, it was actually showing this graph.
over and over, about how we were trying to impact the idea of support deflection. And once we released opt-in verse, which was our combined Academy community and, knowledge base. That number, for support deflection started to turn around almost immediately. And that’s actually what got the buy-in for us to be able to grow over time.
So I think it’s like having good stories like that, but with a focus on a metric that people care about
Dave Derington: [00:09:10] and we are storytellers, aren’t we at them, that’s part of our job.
Adam Avramescu: [00:09:13] I hope so.
Dave Derington: [00:09:14] It’s a really great story because you’re seeing this visualization, but there’s another part of this journey.
That’s really complicated. You have to think about, you have a small team, right? You start with a Colonel, eh, most of the places I’ve started with it’s either just me or one other person. And you’ve got to think about how they grow and mature from generalist to specialist. when you’re small, the first thing you need to do is have a team that can flack second tackle, a whole bunch of different stuff and not say, Oh, that’s not what I was hired to do.
You might be delivering riding. You might do in training, you might be designing content. You might be doing video, you could do all kinds of stuff. So it’s that true startup motion and mentality. And as you grow, you’re going to start seeing which programs generate bigger returns. And you start analyzing things and find, I might want to place a bet on this one or that one.
And that’s usually going to dictate who you hire. So one thing I’ll say here is how do you find these people? That’s tricky, right? Okay. Personally, I’ve found that when I start, and this is just when I start CSMs professional services, people that are really passionate and excited about working at your company are really great to get that brain dump.
And then over time, you might need to be finding people with stage presence, really great interviewing skills and an aptitude for writing.
Adam Avramescu: [00:10:25] Yeah. And as you start to find out, what’s really working in your portfolio of customer education offerings. That’ll also dictate what skills you hire for.
So if you’re really getting a lot of traction because of your audience around say written materials, articles, self-service support, then you might want to start hiring more for that writing competency. And so typically there’s a number of splits that happen. You go from generalist and the generalist, might’ve been your great CSM support agents, so on and so forth.
but then you will usually start to split between having trainers or delivery people and documentation or content people. And then content itself might start to split between, the documentation and tech writing people versus instructional designers who are going to be more focused on. Developing the instructional versus support related experiences.
And then eventually that will even start to specialize more where you might have a videographer or specific e-learning developers. and then there, isn’t typically another split as well, where you want some sort of ops layer, on your team typically that does not come super early anymore. It used to, you used to be the first person you would hire was the, the ops person or the LMS admin.
but I think that starts to come a little bit later now. Yeah. Okay. Dave, I think we’ve done, hopefully done justice to this question. Let’s hear the next
Dave Derington: [00:11:35] one. We beat that up. Okay. So our next question comes from Norma and she asked what’s the ideal mixture of video lessons and texts lessons in an online course, mostly video, both to keep students engaged.
let’s break this down at them.
Adam Avramescu: [00:11:50] I actually want to broaden this question a bit, because I think like the text versus video. argument leaves out a few other modalities that can be really interesting for customer education professionals. I think they’re the most common formats, but they’re not the only ones out there.
And in fact, we have an article on our site called the customer education format guide where we go through the top 10. Yeah. And interesting. Oh, go ahead, Dave.
Dave Derington: [00:12:10] Yeah, I wanted to interject here. We have some interesting stats actually from Skillshare, right? Interesting data point. They did a quantitative analysis of lesson types by format in the 2020 customer education benchmarks and trends report.
We covered that. They did it. It’s amazing. and video featured in was featured in 66% of the coaches. So there’s the most answer, most common text custom HTML that came down to 44% and then thereafter it’s a long tail slide off. so there’s some stats from Skilljar themselves.
Adam Avramescu: [00:12:41] Yeah. So thank you skill for doing that benchmark report.
And that uses actual data from the platform, which is super cool. The one format that probably deserves to be included in this discussion, but is not video or text is interactive, rapid dev e-learning or SCORM, or you might hear it. articulate storyline articulate rise. This is the stuff that you’re creating and programs like that provides you with interactivity.
And so when you think about your learning mix, you want to make sure that you’re providing learners opportunities to reflect on what they’re learning and give them an opportunity to apply their skills. So you can do that through rapid dev e-learning. interactivities. You can also do that through quizzes or assessments.
Yeah.
Dave Derington: [00:13:15] Some of this, then Adam comes down to, what is that ultimate objective of the course, right? I think it’s Stephen Covey. First things first. What am I trying to do? Video is really helpful for visual treatments. Hey, I’m trying to show how to in the product, go here, do this, like navigating steps in the product UI itself.
but if you’re teaching. let’s talk about, I love data. So let’s talk about, I’m trying to teach you how to interpret some data in an application. that might be better taught via texts where you and I usually find people like developers and coders like to read and process stuff. now if you want someone to evaluate in model configuration steps, that might be an interactive scenario, and all the pens on the learner, and I’ve already made this point.
Technical people tend to prefer not absolutely tend to prefer text, whereas people in. So I work in sales, in Nate engagement in at outreach, and a lot of those folks want really tight video.
Adam Avramescu: [00:14:11] Yeah. It’s the persona, matters a lot and this isn’t necessarily a matter of learning styles.
There’s a lot of, Research and evidence out there that learning styles, as we understood them video or a visual audio kinesthetic, doesn’t actually bear out in the data. but context and persona do matter in the sense that learners do have preferences and they have patterns around how they access and engage with content.
So think that’s where you want to take it into account. And the only way to really know is to experiment with your audience. So you can actually try the same lesson or the same content in more than one format when you’re building for the first time or. Even when you’re building say a new piece of content, you could try running a test where you use different formats for the same content, and you can measure not just the learner preference and their satisfaction, because sometimes that can be a false indicator, but also their engagement and retention.
Like what do they actually do with that content?
Dave Derington: [00:15:01] Yeah, and that’s really important at them. And it also gets us into preference and, efficacy. So some people consider themselves to be visual learners. And again, data is not necessarily showing that this is always the case. but in reality, they might actually learn better with texts and your interactivity, that might help them retain information better.
people do love videos, but. Dated preference. Always it doesn’t mirror reality. I think, I don’t think we can underscore this enough. You need to have a mixed media, if you can.
Adam Avramescu: [00:15:30] Yeah. Later in the conference, my team from Slack, we’ll actually be talking about how they put together the prep courses for Slack certified.
And we actually had some really interesting learnings around format there, but I don’t want to, I don’t want to steal their thunder. The last thing I’ll say about this though, before we move on to the next question is consider maintenance. Text and screenshots are far easier to update than video.
So before you commit to doing all of your work and in video, and Hey, just, let’s just build a whole video Academy. really think about how often you’re going to have to update the materials, especially if you’re doing a lot of work in the UI of your product and, the UI is going to be updated.
So I would definitely consider that for the sake of iteration and maintenance. Otherwise you’re going to spend all of your time just updating the content you’ve already created.
Dave Derington: [00:16:13] Yeah, that’s annoying. So Adam, who do we have next?
Adam Avramescu: [00:16:15] Okay, next we’ve got Kerryn from Beamery. She writes, I’d love to hear thoughts on how we can tie training attendance to product usage and product adoption, any best practices on how to measure this.
So we know training is working and continue to invest in the right methods
Dave Derington: [00:16:30] training. Ooh. All right. Now we’re talking, this is a
Adam Avramescu: [00:16:33] story in your wheelhouse.
Dave Derington: [00:16:34] We’re in my wheelhouse, right? This is all about data, and this is all about integrations. These are a couple of things that we know Skilljar to does really well.
we’ve had a couple experiences out of my, both had a lot of experiences with data here. I tend to love it particularly after some of the, jobs that I’ve had in the recent history. Gainsight and Azuqua were very much data and integration. I’m going to recommend to all of you, if you’re just starting out, if you’re in this orange and just starting to get into this, one of the first things you should sit down and think about is prioritizing that data part.
It’s easy to forget. And if you’re in a larger organization and I can tell you true from where we’re, where I’m at today at outreach, as you grow, it gets harder and takes longer and longer to implement. Not because it’s any more difficult, but it’s because you need to work with other people who have a lot of work on their plates.
Quite often, that’s more important than, what you’re trying to do, not to us, but it often is. let me just say one more thing here. And Adam, you can tackle the next part of this, but I love this one word. It always sticks in my head. Our friend, bill Cushard always talks about it. Telemetry. What that means is the tracking after the product adoption activity, all the data that’s that your product team is collecting about what you do, your clicks, where you go, what you do, how you do it, what you achieve in the application.
We’re looking at this on the product side of this all the time. Cause that’s really important to us. And what we want to do is tie these two things together. So if you don’t have a web analytics, you don’t have a product analytics tool. running and your training content, figure that out. for, in my case, we have Tableau, which is really amazing to look at, but we also are using Google analytics and stuff.
You may find the common ones, like Pendo like heap, and like Gainsight.
Adam Avramescu: [00:18:14] Yeah. we could geek out about this for the rest of the session and we only have 10 minutes left, so we don’t want to do that. But, I think I could summarize this too, is. When you’re thinking about this question, maybe think about three things.
Think about the systems aspect, the reporting aspect and the measurement aspect and by systems. how are you going to get this data connected together? So how are you going to connect your LMS or your help center or wherever the content is being delivered to the same database where your product activity and telemetry are being measured.
So that’s why, for instance, when you look at an LMS like Skilljar, they’re going to offer API APIs and data connectors to connect that data. and it’s also why you’ve got I-PASS solutions like zap, Zapier. I can never pronounce the name of that company. or former employer as Equa, which offered the pre-built integrations.
When I say reporting, what I mean is ultimately you want reports or dashboards that show product adoption for trained versus untrained customers or for customers who use certain types of training or customers who use different thresholds of training. The key here is to show the correlation and try to show it in interesting enough ways that are compelling to folks at your organization.
That this is truly not just a random correlation, but a meaningful and strong correlation. We won’t get into correlation versus causation today. That is. A whole different episode that we’ll probably do in the future. And then with measurement, we think about just, what are the key metrics you’re going to use on each side.
So when you talk about thresholds, for instance, are you going to show whether product adoption was affected by people who took one course? Three courses, all your courses. What’s the threshold and same on the product side. When you say adoption, what does that actually mean? Do you have a key metric, like a, adding seven friends on Facebook within a week?
I forgot what the actual metric is, but something like that.
Dave Derington: [00:19:50] Yeah, that was a good one. And to close this out, theoretically you could use this to compare modalities to, you might have ILT virtual instructor led self-paced. You can look at the correlation to the same product adoption metrics there.
Now, unless you have access to a sophisticated data science team, like I’ve been lucky to have recently, which is really cool. You won’t necessarily be able to use this data to make granular decisions about what to keep her cut. there are proxy metrics that work better. For example, you could look at courses where w.
People are enrolled the most often, they’re our most used, and articles that are most viewed, in your knowledge base, which support ticket category just submitted the most often as well. That’s going to start pointing you in the right direction. But I think if we could say anything, Adam, when we say this start right now and don’t give up.
Adam Avramescu: [00:20:34] Make good friends with whoever owns your data warehouse,
Dave Derington: [00:20:37] buy them drinks. All right, let’s go to the next one. Laura, from centrical asks a question, that’s always on the mind of customer software customer education programs, which is how do you approach the strategy and plan for mass documentation and training updates?
When the product visually changes, especially for small team, what are the common pitfalls or things to watch out for Adam? We’ll leave this off
Adam Avramescu: [00:20:59] soon. super common one. We all run into this, especially for those of us who are in SAS, where our products are always changing. And in fact, I think there’s something interesting going on right now where the idea of what is the source of truth about your product?
Is far different than it’s ever looked before. So let’s talk about what’s going on the product side. Product teams are increasingly using feature flags and staged rollouts, which means that at any point you might see something different than I do, or another customer does based on what’s being tested or personalized in your product.
So there is not just one version of your product live at any moment anymore. So it’s not necessarily a realistic expectation that all of our documentation and video are 100% up-to-date at all times.
Dave Derington: [00:21:42] Yeah. And here’s a secret that I think will, it’s not a stick to us, but it’s a secret to others.
Customers have a surprisingly high tolerance for minor differences. Meaning often I like to tell my team they don’t care. They’ll notice it. And they’re going to move on. Call cosmetic differences are often just going to go unnoticed. you change something from blue to green, big deal, right? You might worry on one hand that new customers are going to get confused.
If the training materials look kinda different. and that’s true for really large changes, of course, but smaller changes. It’s the opposite. you’re much more familiar with their product and UI. So this bothers you, it notices you notice it a lot. Now that said you can plan ahead for a situation like this.
And one thing. To do is to have somebody on your team. we have such a person involved in your products, team, life cycle, or release cycles and get them in on the stand-ups in sprint reviews, we call it our go to market planning. we created at outreach and I don’t want to tell you this story real quick.
We created a team, or, a function called our life cycle, program. So think about maintenance and keeping stuff up to date, but we’re thinking a lot broader. Where do you start? Where do you end the whole cradle to grave? We have a flywheel approach where we’re thinking on a monthly basis that we’re going to review our content.
We’re going to make sure we’re all those meetings with our product team. And we work closely and actively with them leading the charge to get that content because we have to know it better than anybody else.
Adam Avramescu: [00:23:04] Yeah, it’s a really good reason to plug in with your product team, your design team, your UX team, whoever sees those things coming first.
And they’re probably working with your product marketing team already. So whatever process they’re using there. You can plug into that and you should, as you see those changes coming, you can code them by impact training materials, do like a small, medium, large t-shirt sizing activity. Sometimes you can use your product teams or product marketing teams coding if they do that as well.
But sometimes there are things that your product team would consider small changes, but they’re going to be big to you because maybe it’s like a small tweak to the UI, but it would affect every piece of material and documentation that you have. So for those larger ones though, like those are things you’re going to need to plan around as much as possible.
You’re going to need to drop things and other projects to work on them. And if this overwhelms your team’s capacity, it’s a great argument for more head count. Dave, I think this is why you track your team’s time against projects accurate.
Dave Derington: [00:23:56] w I don’t do it all the time, but we do it periodically to test velocity.
How fast you’re going to be able to cut down work.
Adam Avramescu: [00:24:01] Yeah. And so for the small and medium pieces, those are ones that you can often batch into scheduled updates. for instance, we’ll update this content twice a year versus a larger one. You might want to say, the documentation will be updated within three days of the product’s released versus the Academy.
Content will be updated within a month. They can be on different, cycles. Then from a production side, there’s also a few things you can do. Dave, do you want to talk a little bit about simplified UI or templates?
Dave Derington: [00:24:27] Yeah. you simplified abstracted version of your interface. So the minor details don’t matter as much something that’s like clean, and you don’t have to update as often.
it really also, one thing I like to do is have a standard template for video. W we try to do that and, The intro and the outro, all that stuff is standardized the color themes. And then we use Camtasia for that is really easy to do so he can often just pull it back. Something changed something, and then throw that back in and platforms like Wistia for video, allow you to change things in place.
So that in sculpture there, nobody knows. And you can just simply update and replace.
Adam Avramescu: [00:25:01] Yeah, there’s some emerging technology around this as well that we’re seeing where there’s more, like AI based programmatic video creation tools, but still very early days for that sort of software. there are things you can do from a process perspective and from a writing perspective.
So one tip that I always use is for text and scraps. Don’t use specific colors or placement, in the text. So for example, don’t say click the blue, new project button at the top, right of your screen. Cause if the button turns green or if it moves to the top left of the screen, like you’ve just created a unneeded revision work for yourself.
You can just say click new project. And if you’re showing where it is on the screen, then that’s only the visual update instead of the audio as well. we’re not necessarily trained to think that way. We think let’s be as precise as possible, but, that’s not actually necessarily the best thing in terms of maintenance and not even the best thing for the customer.
if the customer can see where the button is, they can click the button too. Yeah. Let’s
Dave Derington: [00:25:53] make the other thing that
Adam Avramescu: [00:25:54] I think about a lot here, Dave is versus value. If you’re measuring how discoverable each piece of content you have is and how valuable it is to you, customers, this is going to help you prioritize.
It’s a really good reason. To deprecate your low discoverability and low value content. None of us, like getting rid of things. None of us like taking away an article that might help even one person. But if you’re maintaining content, that’s rarely found by customers. And when they do find it, they don’t like it.
You’re just wasting your team’s time updating it.
Dave Derington: [00:26:22] Absolutely. Absolutely. So I say that we have a minute left, so Adam, shall we, start to close this out and carry this forth into another Q and a episode?
Adam Avramescu: [00:26:32] Absolutely. So we got so many great questions between the Slack channel between emails and we even see some coming in now that hopefully we’re capturing for the future.
I think what we’ll do is we will come back to some of these questions that were submitted in a future episode.
Dave Derington: [00:26:48] let me make one more comment, Sarah. So it closed this out. just a couple of notes. we want to make sure we’re thankful to have you, we were thankful for Sculptra for having us make sure to describe subscribed to the CELab podcast.
You can go to customer.education to check that out. We’d love to see you go there. Check out the customer education manifesto.
Adam Avramescu: [00:27:06] If you use bit dot Lee slash customer education, that’s where you can find my book.
Dave Derington: [00:27:10] And as always, thanks for joining us. Go out, educate experiment, and find your people. Thanks everybody.